IndiaPakistan

Pakistan is a SEPARATE country from India – let's just acknowledge their existence!

A comment was made by one reader on the link for the article by Vir Sanghvi here at Drishtikone. The article was about how different India was from Pakistan and how it is not useful to compare both. The commenter, Vinod Dhall, however, suggested that Pakistan is like an “estranged cousin” and India should “help” Pakistan out at this moment of their crisis instead of feeling great looking from this side of the border.

Some Indians have been obsessed with Pakistan and our relationship with the country on the Western border. There are a lot of links:

  • Speak the same or similar languages: Gujarati, Hindi/Urdu, Punjabi, Sindhi
  • Have very similar rituals, eating habits and wedding procedures.
  • Have cross-over families amongst the Muslims.
  • Are very similar in outlook in certain areas.

These similarities and the historical relation have fawned two types of “Pakistan Lovers” in India:

1. Akhand Bharat proponents: These are the Hindutva folks who keep thinking of an Akhand Bharat from Afghanistan to Assam. Little do they realize that land is not just land. But people as well. And substantial number of people in those areas to the West of our border and specifically in anyplace west of Islamabad are brainwashed Jehadis. To integrate such people into your own country is DISASTROUS, to say the least. Pakistan wanted and fought for an Islamic Republic.. and irrespective whether they thought of such a bunch of people would be gaining strength or not…. it was a certainty given the intolerant streak in Wahabi Islam throughout history.

The only Islamic – theology – based countries that have had a modicum of civilized existence have been those who have vowed to remain Secular! So, intolerance is part and parcel of most theology based Governments in general, and Islamic theology based societies in particular.

So as far as aggregating such a society into ours is concerned? Thanks but no thanks.

2. Indo-Paki bhai bhai: After all these years that the animosity has been occuring, this ‘cousin’ and ‘family’ logic doesn’t hold good anymore. There are elements on both sides that have moved far away from each other despite the similarities.

Also read:  Pictures of Jodhpur, the Blue City

There is a very strong reason why India has only worked with democracy and Pakistan has never had a full term of democratic government. That remains the main difference. Not the friendship should not be pursued. That is a must. In fact, a prosperous Pakistan is in India’s best interest. For, those who are prosperous are generally not so much into fighting over religion (although its not always a verity). But the more stable Pakistan is, the better environment it helps create in the region.

However, having said that, if some country’s top leadership intentionally takes a turn that is negative and destructive – which the Pakistani Army and ISI combine took with Zia ul Haq, Gen Aslam Beg, and Hamid Gul in the 1980s and 90s and that destructive ideology is aimed at you directly, then there is little room for a “brotherly” relationship – the kind that may be existing between say, Switzerland and Germany of today. At best, both the countries will have to co-exist in a pragmatic relationship. A relationship that understands the undercurrents and the limitations of both the sides.

We have had one leader who went on this “brotherly love” path – ex Prime Minister IK Gujral – and virtually helped anihilate the Indian intelligence structure in Pakistan, which has hurt us in being prepared for the attacks like Mumbai ones on 26/11.

Running a country and government is serious stuff. It cannot be and should not be run on emotions.

I think friendship between two – any two – countries should be pursued, but we cannot hold our own morality or lives responsible for the rift if it happens. For example, Pakistanis have a contant grievance against India on Kashmir and swear by “Independence of Kashmir”. I not only find it hypocritical but downright stupid to even indulge in such a discussion. Kashmir WAS independent in 1947 even AFTER the Partition. Until, of course, the Pakistanis thought that it was their chance to just grab it because the “majority was Muslim”. THAT is when the Indian Army descended on Srinagar to push the Pakistani Army back to where it is today. If we had had a better leader than Nehru – who would have listened to his Indian commander rather than get sucked (pun intended!) by Lady Mountbatten and her hubby into going to the UN, Kashmir would NOT have been a problem!

Also read:  Hatred for India and Hindus in Pak school text books

Well, in the normal parlance, the word “Freedom” and Independence means AS THEY ARE! The problem with Pakistani version of the word “Freedom” is that it means “Freedom to live under and ONLY under a Muslim rule”. Other than that the word Freedom loses its meaning altogether. THAT is why in my eyes, the Pakistani stand on Kashmir is PRIMA FACIE and inherently flawed and hypocritical to begin with.

I would like to acknowledge Pakistan as a separate country – something that Pakistanis have always wanted from Indians and held a long grievance against those who don’t acknowledge it so – and in no way look at it as an “extension” or “something to be merged into India” kind of a place. I think they have smart people to take care of their country and they should be able to deal with their destiny. I wish that country and its citizens well.

But at the same time, we have to make sure that the mess in that society and country does not create unnecessary issues and problems in our own country.

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Desh Kapoor

The panache of a writer is proven by the creative pen he uses to transform the most mundane topic into a thrilling story. Desh - the author, critic and analyst uses the power of his pen to create thought-provoking pieces from ordinary topics of discussion. He writes on myriad interesting themes. Read the articles to know more about his views and "drishtikone".

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21 thoughts on “Pakistan is a SEPARATE country from India – let's just acknowledge their existence!”

  1. Q. Am I a Pakistan lover?

    A. YES, ABSOLUTELY.

    Q. Why should I love Pakistan?

    A. Why not? Anyone who does not love countries other than his own is not a Patriot but a Jingoist. I love Pakistan just as much as I love any other country, and a little more.

    Q. Why a little more?

    A. Because of all the reasons listed by Desh, and more. While I have no ambitions of uniting the two countries, we cannot ignore the fact that our people, our culture, our language, our food, our passions, etc etc etc. are very similar. And even if they were not, if Tamils, Biharis, Marathis, Bengalis and Punjabis can love each other and co-exist despite a huge diversity in language and culture; why can’t Indians and Pakistanis?

    People on both sides of the border suffered immensely when some stupid politicians (on both sides) decided to tear apart the country for personal gains. The British institutionalized their “Divide and Rule” policy and some of us continue to behave under the influence of that policy even though the British are long gone!

    Q. Should we not hate Pakistan because of the actions of it’s government and/or some “jehadi” elements in Pakistan?

    A. Absolutely NOT. I do not equate the people of Pakistan with their government or their military and politicians or the “jehadi” elements. And I HOPE LIKE HELL that the rest of the world does not equate me with the government of India or Indian politicians (that have made several decisions I completely disagree with) or the “jehadi” elements in India, which are unfortunately on a rise.

    I would not liked to be seen as a Muthalik, a Laloo, a Mulayam, a Thakare, (the list is too long) and refuse to accept responsibility for their words and actions. I will therefore refuse to see all Pakistanis as Musharafs or Zardaris. Doing this is the same as viewing all Germans as Hitler; all Americans as Bush; all Iranians as Ahmadinejad etc. SHEER STUPIDITY, and nothing else.

    Sure Pakistan is a separate country but it’s not just any other separate country. It is a neighboring country and just by virtue of our geography (if nothing else), our destinies are inter-twined. We cannot have a peaceful and prosperous India without a prospering Pakistan (and Nepal and Bangladesh and Sri Lanka…) This is not to say that we must sacrifice our own “National Interests” which some politicians might have done as a populist move; but that we must identify “Trans-National Interests” and work together towards achieving them.

    So, if we really want to “make sure that the mess in that society and country does not create unnecessary issues and problems in our own country” we better stop looking at the entire country as a “mess” and treat them as humans, just like us. We are just separate countries, not separate planets.

  2. Q. Am I a Pakistan lover?

    A. YES, ABSOLUTELY.

    Q. Why should I love Pakistan?

    A. Why not? Anyone who does not love countries other than his own is not a Patriot but a Jingoist. I love Pakistan just as much as I love any other country, and a little more.

    Q. Why a little more?

    A. Because of all the reasons listed by Desh, and more. While I have no ambitions of uniting the two countries, we cannot ignore the fact that our people, our culture, our language, our food, our passions, etc etc etc. are very similar. And even if they were not, if Tamils, Biharis, Marathis, Bengalis and Punjabis can love each other and co-exist despite a huge diversity in language and culture; why can’t Indians and Pakistanis?

    People on both sides of the border suffered immensely when some stupid politicians (on both sides) decided to tear apart the country for personal gains. The British institutionalized their “Divide and Rule” policy and some of us continue to behave under the influence of that policy even though the British are long gone!

    Q. Should we not hate Pakistan because of the actions of it’s government and/or some “jehadi” elements in Pakistan?

    A. Absolutely NOT. I do not equate the people of Pakistan with their government or their military and politicians or the “jehadi” elements. And I HOPE LIKE HELL that the rest of the world does not equate me with the government of India or Indian politicians (that have made several decisions I completely disagree with) or the “jehadi” elements in India, which are unfortunately on a rise.

    I would not liked to be seen as a Muthalik, a Laloo, a Mulayam, a Thakare, (the list is too long) and refuse to accept responsibility for their words and actions. I will therefore refuse to see all Pakistanis as Musharafs or Zardaris. Doing this is the same as viewing all Germans as Hitler; all Americans as Bush; all Iranians as Ahmadinejad etc. SHEER STUPIDITY, and nothing else.

    Sure Pakistan is a separate country but it’s not just any other separate country. It is a neighboring country and just by virtue of our geography (if nothing else), our destinies are inter-twined. We cannot have a peaceful and prosperous India without a prospering Pakistan (and Nepal and Bangladesh and Sri Lanka…) This is not to say that we must sacrifice our own “National Interests” which some politicians might have done as a populist move; but that we must identify “Trans-National Interests” and work together towards achieving them.

    So, if we really want to “make sure that the mess in that society and country does not create unnecessary issues and problems in our own country” we better stop looking at the entire country as a “mess” and treat them as humans, just like us. We are just separate countries, not separate planets.

  3. One important thing in any relationship is to be pragmatic. I have seen Indians get too emotional and “gooey-gooey” over the Indo-pak similarity. Basically, I love to meet people and interact where ever they are. I would be the last person to say “Go Bomb Pakistan”. I believe that war should only be fought when ALL the measures have been exhausted. For example, we needn’t attack Pakistan over Mumbai 26/11 unless we have completely wiped out the hawala transactions that make Dawood Ibrahim rich! Pakistan in itself doesn’t have much money.. so basically Dawood is what he is because of the smuggling and money coming from Gulf and India.

    However, I am completely convinced (and my predictions based on my reading of Pak’s politics has been SPOT ON) that Pakistan’s takeover by Taliban and Al Qaeda is now a matter of months if not sooner. Any laziness or lack of effort today in securing or neutralizing Nukes will come to visit us real BAD in not so distant future.

    There is a very subtle but critical difference between Inaction and Nonviolence. Its important one gets that.

    There are no marks in heaven or friendship for embracing a suicide bomber on a mission to kill you! If anything, talk him out of it.. or take off his belt forcibly… and if none of that works… RUN LIKE HELL! Time for first is long gone. Time for second is NOW. It might run away soon. THEN, the wealthy may “run like hell” but billions will die due to OUR misplaced and ill-defined concept of “non=violence” and “love”.

  4. One important thing in any relationship is to be pragmatic. I have seen Indians get too emotional and “gooey-gooey” over the Indo-pak similarity. Basically, I love to meet people and interact where ever they are. I would be the last person to say “Go Bomb Pakistan”. I believe that war should only be fought when ALL the measures have been exhausted. For example, we needn’t attack Pakistan over Mumbai 26/11 unless we have completely wiped out the hawala transactions that make Dawood Ibrahim rich! Pakistan in itself doesn’t have much money.. so basically Dawood is what he is because of the smuggling and money coming from Gulf and India.

    However, I am completely convinced (and my predictions based on my reading of Pak’s politics has been SPOT ON) that Pakistan’s takeover by Taliban and Al Qaeda is now a matter of months if not sooner. Any laziness or lack of effort today in securing or neutralizing Nukes will come to visit us real BAD in not so distant future.

    There is a very subtle but critical difference between Inaction and Nonviolence. Its important one gets that.

    There are no marks in heaven or friendship for embracing a suicide bomber on a mission to kill you! If anything, talk him out of it.. or take off his belt forcibly… and if none of that works… RUN LIKE HELL! Time for first is long gone. Time for second is NOW. It might run away soon. THEN, the wealthy may “run like hell” but billions will die due to OUR misplaced and ill-defined concept of “non=violence” and “love”.

  5. Desh,

    Are you suggesting that India should attack Pakistan and take over its nuclear facilities in self-defense?!!?

    Sure Pakistan has it’s problems and they need to be resolved. EVEN IF your “prediction” of a Taliban taking over Pakistan is taken seriously, the best we can do is “assist” Pakistan in tackling Taliban; not become a Taliban ourselves and take over Pakistan before they do!

    Sure there’s no scope for inaction. But before we look elsewhere, we must beef up our intelligence system and defense establishment; we must smoke out Taliban and Dawood supporters within India; we must eliminate Hindu Jehadis and throw them into political oblivion. If we don’t take action on these, someday someone in Pakistan or China or elsewhere might say the same about India – let’s take them over and their nuclear installations before things go out of control.

  6. Desh,

    Are you suggesting that India should attack Pakistan and take over its nuclear facilities in self-defense?!!?

    Sure Pakistan has it’s problems and they need to be resolved. EVEN IF your “prediction” of a Taliban taking over Pakistan is taken seriously, the best we can do is “assist” Pakistan in tackling Taliban; not become a Taliban ourselves and take over Pakistan before they do!

    Sure there’s no scope for inaction. But before we look elsewhere, we must beef up our intelligence system and defense establishment; we must smoke out Taliban and Dawood supporters within India; we must eliminate Hindu Jehadis and throw them into political oblivion. If we don’t take action on these, someday someone in Pakistan or China or elsewhere might say the same about India – let’s take them over and their nuclear installations before things go out of control.

  7. I think I have said war is not a possibility. So thats not my suggestion.

    now, let’s understand what you mean when you say:

    the best we can do is “assist” Pakistan in tackling Taliban

    What, in your idea, is “Pakistan”? If you think Zardari and his administration is “Pakistan”.. then you need to look a little more closely as to how the decision making works in Pakistan. Surely, the buck doesnt stop at the PM or the President there, as does in India.

    To understand it better, I will encourage you to read “Deception” by Adrian Levy. The struggles of Benazir Bhutto in her first term are well known.. when she was just a puppet in the hands of Hamid Gul, Aslam Beg and AQ Khan. Anyone with a bit of understanding of Pakistani politics understands where Hamid Gul and Aslam Beg stand. They were the architects of Taliban AND the Strategic Depth theory of Zia administration. And by some analysts, Aslam was also responsible for Zia’s death – circumstantial evidence (out of all the Army folks, he was the only main Army officer who was NOT on the helicopter as he chose a very circuitous roue from that place to Islamabad).

    Nevertheless, I believe that there is a group of Islamic “Terror Minds” within Pak Army and ISI (mind you, the ISI officers are really Pak Army officers on loan, so the difference is very minor, if at all!!) that is responsible for the Taliban and Al Qaeda’s livelihood and survival and is behind the creation of what is today the biggest global terror network.

    When people start talking of Hindutva folks when the discussion is about the Islamic Jehadis, then all i can do is pity at their delusion and short sightedness. Hindutva brigade is foolish..and useless but to stall a thorough investigation of the THREAT from Pakistan’s Jehadis by bringing Muthalik or Varun gandhi up is not just irresponsible but Machiavellian! And I STRONGLY oppose it… for you have no idea what the world is dealing with right now! Just an example – $100,000 were wired by ISI Chief via Omar Sayyed Sheikh (infamous killer of Daniel Pearl) to Mohammad Atta. I encourage you to search for Daniel pearl on Drishtikone and read about it.. as well as get the links from Wall Street Journal to check out the source of the story. SO, given that piece of Information.. WHO is “Pakistan”?? Who would you want India to “assist”??

    Sir, what I am saying is a PRACTICAL issue.. a very clear understanding of which CRITICAL to the survival of all.. EVEN the unsuspecting Pakistanis who go by their chores everyday, shout slogans or swear by Kashmir thinking its their duty.. little understanding what is going on in under the hood of such a nationalistic fervour!

    There are ways that the Nukes could be neutralized.. i am not sure what they are.. but the world – US and India will HAVE TO FIGURE THEM OUT! I cannot stress this thing enough… and I would NOT let anyone OBFUSCATE a serious discussion on a very grave issue by someone who uses completely irrelevant and thoroughly irresponsible BOGIES like Muthalik or Varun Gandhi. The threat and the stakes ARE VERY VERY HIGH!

  8. EVEN IF your “prediction” of a Taliban taking over Pakistan is taken seriously

    I am completely at loss of words at the word “seriously” in this sentence! I am not sure if you have been reading any news from Pakistan lately.. but if you could also learn about your “beloved” it might stand your heart in good stead in future. Some facts:

    1. Swat and substantial part of NWFP has been HANDED OVER to Taliban. Swat is 60 km from Islamabad. So if it were Delhi, assume Taliban is ruling in Gurgaon!
    2. taliban is now active in karachi and by many reports, the deal between Taliban and Dawood has been done. Karachi is 55% of Pakistan’s GDP. If that goes… you can kiss good bye to pakistan’s economy!
    3. Posters in Karachi and Islamabad have started appearing which are more in line with the Taliban’s stringent philosophy and also urging the Mullahs and Jehadis to side with Taliban vs the Pak Army (the part which fights and is still in some way controlled by the state and NOT the “Terror Minds”).

    A “Bangladesh” just happened last month in Swat and parts of NWFP. No one even noticed.

    Wait for another few months and you will see things getting worse!

  9. I think I have said war is not a possibility. So thats not my suggestion.

    now, let’s understand what you mean when you say:

    the best we can do is “assist” Pakistan in tackling Taliban

    What, in your idea, is “Pakistan”? If you think Zardari and his administration is “Pakistan”.. then you need to look a little more closely as to how the decision making works in Pakistan. Surely, the buck doesnt stop at the PM or the President there, as does in India.

    To understand it better, I will encourage you to read “Deception” by Adrian Levy. The struggles of Benazir Bhutto in her first term are well known.. when she was just a puppet in the hands of Hamid Gul, Aslam Beg and AQ Khan. Anyone with a bit of understanding of Pakistani politics understands where Hamid Gul and Aslam Beg stand. They were the architects of Taliban AND the Strategic Depth theory of Zia administration. And by some analysts, Aslam was also responsible for Zia’s death – circumstantial evidence (out of all the Army folks, he was the only main Army officer who was NOT on the helicopter as he chose a very circuitous roue from that place to Islamabad).

    Nevertheless, I believe that there is a group of Islamic “Terror Minds” within Pak Army and ISI (mind you, the ISI officers are really Pak Army officers on loan, so the difference is very minor, if at all!!) that is responsible for the Taliban and Al Qaeda’s livelihood and survival and is behind the creation of what is today the biggest global terror network.

    When people start talking of Hindutva folks when the discussion is about the Islamic Jehadis, then all i can do is pity at their delusion and short sightedness. Hindutva brigade is foolish..and useless but to stall a thorough investigation of the THREAT from Pakistan’s Jehadis by bringing Muthalik or Varun gandhi up is not just irresponsible but Machiavellian! And I STRONGLY oppose it… for you have no idea what the world is dealing with right now! Just an example – $100,000 were wired by ISI Chief via Omar Sayyed Sheikh (infamous killer of Daniel Pearl) to Mohammad Atta. I encourage you to search for Daniel pearl on Drishtikone and read about it.. as well as get the links from Wall Street Journal to check out the source of the story. SO, given that piece of Information.. WHO is “Pakistan”?? Who would you want India to “assist”??

    Sir, what I am saying is a PRACTICAL issue.. a very clear understanding of which CRITICAL to the survival of all.. EVEN the unsuspecting Pakistanis who go by their chores everyday, shout slogans or swear by Kashmir thinking its their duty.. little understanding what is going on in under the hood of such a nationalistic fervour!

    There are ways that the Nukes could be neutralized.. i am not sure what they are.. but the world – US and India will HAVE TO FIGURE THEM OUT! I cannot stress this thing enough… and I would NOT let anyone OBFUSCATE a serious discussion on a very grave issue by someone who uses completely irrelevant and thoroughly irresponsible BOGIES like Muthalik or Varun Gandhi. The threat and the stakes ARE VERY VERY HIGH!

  10. EVEN IF your “prediction” of a Taliban taking over Pakistan is taken seriously

    I am completely at loss of words at the word “seriously” in this sentence! I am not sure if you have been reading any news from Pakistan lately.. but if you could also learn about your “beloved” it might stand your heart in good stead in future. Some facts:

    1. Swat and substantial part of NWFP has been HANDED OVER to Taliban. Swat is 60 km from Islamabad. So if it were Delhi, assume Taliban is ruling in Gurgaon!
    2. taliban is now active in karachi and by many reports, the deal between Taliban and Dawood has been done. Karachi is 55% of Pakistan’s GDP. If that goes… you can kiss good bye to pakistan’s economy!
    3. Posters in Karachi and Islamabad have started appearing which are more in line with the Taliban’s stringent philosophy and also urging the Mullahs and Jehadis to side with Taliban vs the Pak Army (the part which fights and is still in some way controlled by the state and NOT the “Terror Minds”).

    A “Bangladesh” just happened last month in Swat and parts of NWFP. No one even noticed.

    Wait for another few months and you will see things getting worse!

  11. I think you are making yourself even more laughable. I admire the efforts you put in your blogs BUT that does not mean you can write anything without being criticized.

    One, by your own admission, Taliban taking over Pakistan is a “prediction”. Please try to treat it just like that and not words etched in stone. You may have a million and one reasons to believe that your “predictions” are always right but I don’t know anyone with that gift – are you claiming to be Nostradamus; have you been time traveling lately??

    >> There are ways that the Nukes could be neutralized.. i am not sure what they are.. but the world – US and India will HAVE TO FIGURE THEM OUT!

    Well, that’s very helpful, isn’t it? Paki nukes must be neutralized…How?… Uhm…I don’t know just GO FIGURE IT OUT…duh!!

    How can we assist “Pakistan”?

    Well, first of all, let’s try to agree if we’re both talking about the same “Pakistan” or you have a fictitious nation in your head. The Pakistan you see if ONLY full of Jehadis, the Pakistan I see is troubled by a few (ok, more than a few) Jehadis but where the vast majority is still the same people like you and me.

    Bihar was “ruled” by Laloo and his goons for almost 20 years, it suffered, but I believe it can get back on it’s feet and it’s already on its way. Should we have given up on Bihar and Biharis? UP has been “ruled” by one idiot or another for the past several decades; should we give up on the “common man” in UP? Punjab was under immense terror; should we have discounted all the innocent people of Punjab? The United Stated democratically elected an idiot like Bush, not just once but TWICE! Does that mean all Americans are idiots?

    Here’s my simple point: YES, Taliban is a threat; YES Taliban is gaining strength in Pakistan; YES, the world must do everything it can to neutralize Taliban; NO this STILL does not mean Pakistan should be bombed like Afghanistan (btw, that didn’t help either, did it?).

    >> EVEN the unsuspecting Pakistanis who go by their chores everyday, shout slogans or swear by Kashmir thinking its their duty.. little understanding what is going on in under the hood of such a nationalistic fervour!

    Have you ever wondered if you might be the victim of a similar Anti-Pakistan “fervour”? You claim to know Pakistan better than anyone else – how many Pakistanis have you met? How many have you befriended? Have all of them been Jehadis? Could you not see a human being just like yourself in any of them? Pity!

    The first very simple thing everyone can do to “assist” Pakistan is to recognize that the vast majority of Pakistanis are NOT Jehadis. Doing this is a pre-requisite to ANY “non-war” option to help Pakistan (and the world). Don’t you get the simple fact: by calling all Pakistanis jehadis, you’re playing right into the hands of Taliban – this is exactly what they want – and if they succeed, they might offer you a “Taliban War Prize”.

    Oh and your claim that the Hindu Jehadis are just a bunch of stupid novices compared to the Pakistani Jehadis. Well, yes, I agree with you on that BUT shall we wait till they become as bad and out of control as Taliban? The “foolish” Hindutva Brigade is in our own country, is gaining strength and becoming more bold and brash by the day (Muthalik was a nobody till a few weeks back, look at him now!). Should we not do anything about it? Why is “inaction” acceptable within our own borders while we demand stringent action in our neighboring country?

    And by the way, my intention was not to OBFUSCATE any serious discussion. Rather, by bringing up Muthalik’s name (I didn’t name Varun Gandhi, you brought up his name yourself, perhaps rightly so!) I wanted to illustrate the point that to think that every Pakistani is a Jehadi would be as ERRONEOUS as thinking that every Indian is a Muthalik. Thanks God, neither of the above is true (except to a few naive minds).

  12. Ok, now you are just going on and on without making any sense… just for the heck of it.

    1. I have NEVER said that “all” Pakistanis are Jehadis. I have taken pains to identify the “terror minds” in Pak power circles above. if you want to read what you want, that’s your own prerogative.

    2. I have not said that what I am saying is going to be true or is even based on any futuristic science. It is my analysis, but the facts bear that analyses out. You may choose to ignore them, but then that is YOUR prerogative.

    3. I know that Pakistani Nukes have to be secured or neutralized. That is my conclusion. I am not a military expert to suggest what to do. That is NOT my domain. However, I do feel and want that war not be an option. Now, I am not sure what your problem is with this but I am pretty consistent on this. Check out my analysis after Mumbai Attacks during the time that they were at it… and even in that charged climate I said the same thing.

    4. There is a serious global threat from Taliban and Jehadis and the “Terror Minds” within the Pak administration combine. This post was about that. The 150-odd people who were killed in Mumbai cannot be brought alive or their near and dear ones feel comforted by the fact there there are 90% Pakistanis who are peaceful! When dealing with terror.. one has to keep focused on that. Just because of 90% peaceful folks you cannot STOP concentrating on the ones who are more potent!

    5. Now, Muthalik. There is Rush Limbaugh here in the US. I am sure there is some guy living in Fiji who is as much of a crackpot as Muthalik is. Now, bringing the discussion on such crackpots does in NO WAY help one on understanding the threat from Taliban and Jehadis or fighting it.

    It simply brings to the fore a popular and self defeating attribute amongst people who feel just by making such statements they are being “fair” and “pacifist”. The truth is that the “journey” of the Jehadis in Pakistan will pass over the bodies of their citizens FIRST before it reaches India. I cannot explain to a lot of Pakistanis why there can be no room for complacency in fighting this monster that was unleashed by Jinnah to start with (through his Direct Action Day call in middle-1946) and then empowered by Zia in 1980s. Being an Indian, I carry a baggage from Pakistani standpoint and that is fine. But I will say what I feel is important and critical. SO, if you were really concerned for Pakistani common man, you would do well to get acquainted with the threat. For starters, read:

    Frontline Pakistan
    Nuclear Deception

    Hopefully that will help you a bit. Your love for Pakistanis reminds me of Mulayam Singh Yadav’s love for Muslims in UP. He just gives out cliches. Nothing has been done in a concrete manner. Nothing of the future of the Muslims in that state. Just cliches and rule by bringing out fear of “Hindutva brigade”… as if a Shiv Sena guy is responsible for a Madrasa-educated kid not making it to an IT company!

  13. I think you are making yourself even more laughable. I admire the efforts you put in your blogs BUT that does not mean you can write anything without being criticized.

    One, by your own admission, Taliban taking over Pakistan is a “prediction”. Please try to treat it just like that and not words etched in stone. You may have a million and one reasons to believe that your “predictions” are always right but I don’t know anyone with that gift – are you claiming to be Nostradamus; have you been time traveling lately??

    >> There are ways that the Nukes could be neutralized.. i am not sure what they are.. but the world – US and India will HAVE TO FIGURE THEM OUT!

    Well, that’s very helpful, isn’t it? Paki nukes must be neutralized…How?… Uhm…I don’t know just GO FIGURE IT OUT…duh!!

    How can we assist “Pakistan”?

    Well, first of all, let’s try to agree if we’re both talking about the same “Pakistan” or you have a fictitious nation in your head. The Pakistan you see if ONLY full of Jehadis, the Pakistan I see is troubled by a few (ok, more than a few) Jehadis but where the vast majority is still the same people like you and me.

    Bihar was “ruled” by Laloo and his goons for almost 20 years, it suffered, but I believe it can get back on it’s feet and it’s already on its way. Should we have given up on Bihar and Biharis? UP has been “ruled” by one idiot or another for the past several decades; should we give up on the “common man” in UP? Punjab was under immense terror; should we have discounted all the innocent people of Punjab? The United Stated democratically elected an idiot like Bush, not just once but TWICE! Does that mean all Americans are idiots?

    Here’s my simple point: YES, Taliban is a threat; YES Taliban is gaining strength in Pakistan; YES, the world must do everything it can to neutralize Taliban; NO this STILL does not mean Pakistan should be bombed like Afghanistan (btw, that didn’t help either, did it?).

    >> EVEN the unsuspecting Pakistanis who go by their chores everyday, shout slogans or swear by Kashmir thinking its their duty.. little understanding what is going on in under the hood of such a nationalistic fervour!

    Have you ever wondered if you might be the victim of a similar Anti-Pakistan “fervour”? You claim to know Pakistan better than anyone else – how many Pakistanis have you met? How many have you befriended? Have all of them been Jehadis? Could you not see a human being just like yourself in any of them? Pity!

    The first very simple thing everyone can do to “assist” Pakistan is to recognize that the vast majority of Pakistanis are NOT Jehadis. Doing this is a pre-requisite to ANY “non-war” option to help Pakistan (and the world). Don’t you get the simple fact: by calling all Pakistanis jehadis, you’re playing right into the hands of Taliban – this is exactly what they want – and if they succeed, they might offer you a “Taliban War Prize”.

    Oh and your claim that the Hindu Jehadis are just a bunch of stupid novices compared to the Pakistani Jehadis. Well, yes, I agree with you on that BUT shall we wait till they become as bad and out of control as Taliban? The “foolish” Hindutva Brigade is in our own country, is gaining strength and becoming more bold and brash by the day (Muthalik was a nobody till a few weeks back, look at him now!). Should we not do anything about it? Why is “inaction” acceptable within our own borders while we demand stringent action in our neighboring country?

    And by the way, my intention was not to OBFUSCATE any serious discussion. Rather, by bringing up Muthalik’s name (I didn’t name Varun Gandhi, you brought up his name yourself, perhaps rightly so!) I wanted to illustrate the point that to think that every Pakistani is a Jehadi would be as ERRONEOUS as thinking that every Indian is a Muthalik. Thanks God, neither of the above is true (except to a few naive minds).

  14. Ok, now you are just going on and on without making any sense… just for the heck of it.

    1. I have NEVER said that “all” Pakistanis are Jehadis. I have taken pains to identify the “terror minds” in Pak power circles above. if you want to read what you want, that’s your own prerogative.

    2. I have not said that what I am saying is going to be true or is even based on any futuristic science. It is my analysis, but the facts bear that analyses out. You may choose to ignore them, but then that is YOUR prerogative.

    3. I know that Pakistani Nukes have to be secured or neutralized. That is my conclusion. I am not a military expert to suggest what to do. That is NOT my domain. However, I do feel and want that war not be an option. Now, I am not sure what your problem is with this but I am pretty consistent on this. Check out my analysis after Mumbai Attacks during the time that they were at it… and even in that charged climate I said the same thing.

    4. There is a serious global threat from Taliban and Jehadis and the “Terror Minds” within the Pak administration combine. This post was about that. The 150-odd people who were killed in Mumbai cannot be brought alive or their near and dear ones feel comforted by the fact there there are 90% Pakistanis who are peaceful! When dealing with terror.. one has to keep focused on that. Just because of 90% peaceful folks you cannot STOP concentrating on the ones who are more potent!

    5. Now, Muthalik. There is Rush Limbaugh here in the US. I am sure there is some guy living in Fiji who is as much of a crackpot as Muthalik is. Now, bringing the discussion on such crackpots does in NO WAY help one on understanding the threat from Taliban and Jehadis or fighting it.

    It simply brings to the fore a popular and self defeating attribute amongst people who feel just by making such statements they are being “fair” and “pacifist”. The truth is that the “journey” of the Jehadis in Pakistan will pass over the bodies of their citizens FIRST before it reaches India. I cannot explain to a lot of Pakistanis why there can be no room for complacency in fighting this monster that was unleashed by Jinnah to start with (through his Direct Action Day call in middle-1946) and then empowered by Zia in 1980s. Being an Indian, I carry a baggage from Pakistani standpoint and that is fine. But I will say what I feel is important and critical. SO, if you were really concerned for Pakistani common man, you would do well to get acquainted with the threat. For starters, read:

    Frontline Pakistan
    Nuclear Deception

    Hopefully that will help you a bit. Your love for Pakistanis reminds me of Mulayam Singh Yadav’s love for Muslims in UP. He just gives out cliches. Nothing has been done in a concrete manner. Nothing of the future of the Muslims in that state. Just cliches and rule by bringing out fear of “Hindutva brigade”… as if a Shiv Sena guy is responsible for a Madrasa-educated kid not making it to an IT company!

  15. I am the one going on just for the heck of it? Desh, look to your left and look to your right. I’m sure you’ll find someone who’ll tell you that you’re the one doing that.

    >> I have not said that what I am saying is going to be true or is even based on any futuristic science. It is my analysis, but the facts bear that analyses out.

    SO let me get this right. Your “prediction” may or may not come true; it’s not even based on any futuristic science; BUT we MUST act assuming it will come true BECAUSE apparently you are the only one who has been reading the news on Pakistan and “the facts bear that analyses out”. Very well done, how can anyone argue against that?

    >> There is a serious global threat from Taliban and Jehadis and the “Terror Minds” within the Pak administration combine. This post was about that.

    If this post was really about that, why is your post full of hatred towards Pakistan? You freely attribute your twisted logic to Pakistan and then blame them for being unfair. Here’re some examples.

    >> Pakistanis have a contant grievance against India on Kashmir and swear by “Independence of Kashmir”. I not only find it hypocritical but downright stupid to even indulge in such a discussion. Kashmir WAS independent in 1947 even AFTER the Partition. Until, of course, the Pakistanis thought that it was their chance to just grab it because the “majority was Muslim”.

    >> The problem with Pakistani version of the word “Freedom” is that it means “Freedom to live under and ONLY under a Muslim rule”.

    >> There are no marks in heaven or friendship for embracing a suicide bomber on a mission to kill you!

    Can you tell me which historical records or facts do you base these attributions on? First, you generalize a viewpoint about Kashmir and impose it on all Pakistanis, then you go ahead and like the know-all that you are, you declare that viewpoint to be stupid. Further…did Jinnah personally come to you to say that “I saw a chance to just grab Kashmir because the majority was Muslim but alas, the Indian army dragged us out”? Did you read the Pakistani definition of freedom in the Oxford Dictionary of Pakistan? Did you just call an entire nation a “suicide bomber”? And you pretend to be intelligent? Hmmmm…

    >> Your love for Pakistanis reminds me of Mulayam Singh Yadav’s love for Muslims in UP.

    >> … as if a Shiv Sena guy is responsible for a Madrasa-educated kid not making it to an IT company!

    Your hatred for Pakistan and Muslims reminds me of Thakarey and Tokadia; I’ll leave it to you to decide which is worse. And your closing statement is just shameful, to say the least. If this is the best you can do to defend your “wise views”, you should consider changing them or keeping them to yourself!

    I think I have said enough. You can only lead a horse to water, cannot make it drink. I just hope my comments balance out your lopsided views for the benefit of viewers of this blog – I doubt they’ll have any affect on you ‘coz you seem to have “evolved” into someone who shuts down in the wake of opposing views. Of course, since it’s YOUR blog, you can have the last word…

    Cheers!

  16. I am the one going on just for the heck of it? Desh, look to your left and look to your right. I’m sure you’ll find someone who’ll tell you that you’re the one doing that.

    >> I have not said that what I am saying is going to be true or is even based on any futuristic science. It is my analysis, but the facts bear that analyses out.

    SO let me get this right. Your “prediction” may or may not come true; it’s not even based on any futuristic science; BUT we MUST act assuming it will come true BECAUSE apparently you are the only one who has been reading the news on Pakistan and “the facts bear that analyses out”. Very well done, how can anyone argue against that?

    >> There is a serious global threat from Taliban and Jehadis and the “Terror Minds” within the Pak administration combine. This post was about that.

    If this post was really about that, why is your post full of hatred towards Pakistan? You freely attribute your twisted logic to Pakistan and then blame them for being unfair. Here’re some examples.

    >> Pakistanis have a contant grievance against India on Kashmir and swear by “Independence of Kashmir”. I not only find it hypocritical but downright stupid to even indulge in such a discussion. Kashmir WAS independent in 1947 even AFTER the Partition. Until, of course, the Pakistanis thought that it was their chance to just grab it because the “majority was Muslim”.

    >> The problem with Pakistani version of the word “Freedom” is that it means “Freedom to live under and ONLY under a Muslim rule”.

    >> There are no marks in heaven or friendship for embracing a suicide bomber on a mission to kill you!

    Can you tell me which historical records or facts do you base these attributions on? First, you generalize a viewpoint about Kashmir and impose it on all Pakistanis, then you go ahead and like the know-all that you are, you declare that viewpoint to be stupid. Further…did Jinnah personally come to you to say that “I saw a chance to just grab Kashmir because the majority was Muslim but alas, the Indian army dragged us out”? Did you read the Pakistani definition of freedom in the Oxford Dictionary of Pakistan? Did you just call an entire nation a “suicide bomber”? And you pretend to be intelligent? Hmmmm…

    >> Your love for Pakistanis reminds me of Mulayam Singh Yadav’s love for Muslims in UP.

    >> … as if a Shiv Sena guy is responsible for a Madrasa-educated kid not making it to an IT company!

    Your hatred for Pakistan and Muslims reminds me of Thakarey and Tokadia; I’ll leave it to you to decide which is worse. And your closing statement is just shameful, to say the least. If this is the best you can do to defend your “wise views”, you should consider changing them or keeping them to yourself!

    I think I have said enough. You can only lead a horse to water, cannot make it drink. I just hope my comments balance out your lopsided views for the benefit of viewers of this blog – I doubt they’ll have any affect on you ‘coz you seem to have “evolved” into someone who shuts down in the wake of opposing views. Of course, since it’s YOUR blog, you can have the last word…

    Cheers!

  17. You are amazing.. and hillarious. Why don’t you read something and get up on the historic timeline of Kashmir issue and then come back instead of making a fool of yourself? i am not sure what you are trying to prove here by giving the facts of when and how Kashmir got controlled by India and Pakistan a color of “hatred”. I can understand you love Pakistan.. I have no issues. But at least know your elbow from your backside!

    As far as Jinnah’s actions are concerned – except for those who are either lazy or thoroughly uninterested in History and just know it by hearsay instead of going into the facts of that time, KNOW that the riots before partition STARTED due to the call of DIRECT ACTION DAY in middle of 1946. The riots went on for at least 4-5 months.. where Jinnah’s men and Congress followers were fighting it out in Bihar and Bengal. THAT is what was seen as the trigger for emergence of RSS as a force in Punjab province.

    I am not here to “teach” history to you.. and I will not let anyone peddle IDEOLOGICAL BULLSHIT as a response to HISTORICAL facts. So, go get a good book… or at least read the Wikipedia if nothing else works or is available. I have got my facts from the books and newspaper archives, but even the net will do for a starter.

    If criticism or relating uneasy facts seems like “hatred” to you.. then so be it! I have very little sympathy for such melodramatic minds. Good luck!

  18. You are amazing.. and hillarious. Why don’t you read something and get up on the historic timeline of Kashmir issue and then come back instead of making a fool of yourself? i am not sure what you are trying to prove here by giving the facts of when and how Kashmir got controlled by India and Pakistan a color of “hatred”. I can understand you love Pakistan.. I have no issues. But at least know your elbow from your backside!

    As far as Jinnah’s actions are concerned – except for those who are either lazy or thoroughly uninterested in History and just know it by hearsay instead of going into the facts of that time, KNOW that the riots before partition STARTED due to the call of DIRECT ACTION DAY in middle of 1946. The riots went on for at least 4-5 months.. where Jinnah’s men and Congress followers were fighting it out in Bihar and Bengal. THAT is what was seen as the trigger for emergence of RSS as a force in Punjab province.

    I am not here to “teach” history to you.. and I will not let anyone peddle IDEOLOGICAL BULLSHIT as a response to HISTORICAL facts. So, go get a good book… or at least read the Wikipedia if nothing else works or is available. I have got my facts from the books and newspaper archives, but even the net will do for a starter.

    If criticism or relating uneasy facts seems like “hatred” to you.. then so be it! I have very little sympathy for such melodramatic minds. Good luck!

  19. Desh, I agree that Pakistan may fall in the hands of Talibans. But I am not that sure and I do not believe it would be within a year. The problem of nukes need to be discussed with the international community. I am sure both the US and Israel are equally concerned about what to do if that happens.

    Anonymous suggest that India should help Pakistan. I am not sure what India could do. The best India could do is to stay out. In spite of all the similarities of the people of both countries, the underlying cause of the division (that is the religions) is as sharp as ever. Going back to one India should be out of question and makes no sense.

  20. Desh, I agree that Pakistan may fall in the hands of Talibans. But I am not that sure and I do not believe it would be within a year. The problem of nukes need to be discussed with the international community. I am sure both the US and Israel are equally concerned about what to do if that happens.

    Anonymous suggest that India should help Pakistan. I am not sure what India could do. The best India could do is to stay out. In spite of all the similarities of the people of both countries, the underlying cause of the division (that is the religions) is as sharp as ever. Going back to one India should be out of question and makes no sense.

  21. me and my wife have been researching 2012 for about 2 years now and have allready started planning they say by 2010 you will see it in the sky and i think thats about the time we will have everything ready we are looking to start a survival group or if anyone else has one that we can join let me know ill check back later thanks
    [url=http://2012earth.net
    ]2012 end of world
    [/url] – some truth about 2012

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