An Indian Civilizational Perspective

Shoaib Akhtar, T20 and the Pakistani syndrome

Shoaib is suffering from genital viral warts and electrofulgration [a surgical procedure] was done on May 12, 2009. His wound though healing needs further care and treatment for another minimum ten days for the purpose of healing and to achieve skin cover.

Is that graphic enough or do you want the picture and the measurements of the organ in question?

This was part of a press release given out by Pakistan’s Cricket Board for the reason why Akhtar was not part of the T20 World Cup team. Honestly, Shoaib Akhtar is not the most disciplined or the greatest of cricketers. But he is damn good in what he does. This is the worst way you could humiliate a person like him publicly! I wonder what he thinks about playing for Pakistan again?

It is my theory that the way to keep Pakistanis busy is have them forcibly live together and just be with themselves. They will end up fighting and humiliating each other so much that they will forget the others. I have seen it in my city in the US. There are so many radio shows.. most of them owned by Pakistanis. From 1997 onwards I have been listening to the acrimony. One humiliates the other “oh he is a lower cast guy.. obviously he has no class” then the other would call this guy a “Haramzada” on air…. all after promising to speak in “Shaeesta Andaaz” (piuos way). Yeah Right!! 😉

I often think that Pakistan has just one religion to contend with (yeah yeah .. others are there.. but they are canon fodder and who cares for their rights anyways!!).. and YET.. they keep fighting with each other. I have never ever heard a mosque in India getting bombed or suicide bombings in a mosque – Shia or Sunni. But in Pakistan, it is pretty common to have a few such bombings with several scores dying each year! And we are talking just ONE religion. Yes, it is a different denomination.. but so what?

We, in India, have as much complexity of that one religion, but God knows how many OTHER religions and THEIR denominations.. ALL sticking together. And yet the incidents of religious tensions are so much fewer and nowhere close in the barbarity and scale.

So, if the founders wanted a safe haven for Islam.. they have actually achieved the EXACT opposite!

Reference Links:

1. Shoaib pulled from World Twenty20 squad

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22 Comments
  1. Anonymous says

    What started as a reasonable post displaying dismay over the treatment of Shoaib Akhtar by the Pakistan Cricket Board ended up mocking an entire country for its inability to live peacefully despite having one religion. Needless… don’t you think?

    Anyway, on Shoaib, I think he has been given too many chances to get back on track and I can understand PCB’s frustration with him. It’s time for him to hang his boots – you can be the best player in the world but if you can’t behave in a civil manner, you should have no place in the national squad of any country, in any sport since players are also ambassadors of their country and of the sport. Shoaib has proved time and again that he is a poor ambassador of Pakistan and Cricket.

    That said, I agree that the PCB should not have humiliated him in public like this – nobody deserves to be treated like this – not even Shoaib. But to extrapolate this behavior and the behavior of a bunch of Pakistani radio jockeys to the entire country is totally uncalled for.

    Only one religion and yet they fight… yes, it is terrible but we do the same, don’t we? Yes…Yes… we have several religions in India but even if we didn’t, would there be any less violence in India? Just look around what’s been happening in India:

    1. Biharis being beaten up in by MNS goons in Maharashtra – same religion…right? The MNS routinely and openly talks about kicking non-Marathis out of Mumbai and Maharashtra; they attack shops and businesses, beat up weak and unarmed daily-wagers. Who needs bombs when you can bash the life out of those poor buggers with bamboo sticks? So much for “sticking together”

    2. Attacks against Dalits by the so-called “high caste’ goons are so common that it is impossible to list them all – Bihar, UP, Rajasthan, Andhra, Tamil Nadu… almost every Indian state has witnessed such attacks. Are members of the Ranvir Sena and MCC / PWG from different religions? NO! To further illustrate, in Rajasthan alone, incidents of attacks against Dalits average 5024 per year (including 46 killings and 138 cases of rape). Aren’t we doing well on “sticking together”? [http://www.indiatogether.org/d…]

    3. Even the Sikh riots in 1984 can be listed here since Sikhs come from (erstwhile) Hindu families… right? The eldest sons from Hindu families adopted Sikhism to fight the Muslim invaders; to that extent, Sikhs are also Hindus. We abundantly displayed in 1984, in the capital of the country, how well we “stick together”.

    4. Or what about the recent killings in Vienna, and the riots that followed in Punjab? Weren’t these internal fights between different sects of Sikhs – Dalit Sikhs (Dera Sach Khand) and Jat Sikhs?

    5. What about the atrocities against the other big underprivileged social group – the “scheduled tribes”? Till date, our Government refuses to officially recognize them as “adivasis” (aboriginals) in international forums since that would impose pressure on India to treat them better. Instead, officially they are termed as “vanvasis” (forest dwellers) or scheduled tribes – their entire existence and identity left to the depleted forests they once depended on or to an arbitrary, regularly modified (and politically motivated) list in the Constitution of India. Tribals are routinely shunted off their lands; are forced to migrate to cities and work in terrible conditions; their women are routinely raped, often in public. Are we really “sticking together”?

    So yes, the Shia-Sunni violence in Pakistan is unfortunate but we Indians have no right to assume a moral high ground since we have plenty of skeletons in our own closet. Perhaps we don’t use bombs and suicide bombers but the crimes are no less barbaric – it’s man against man; often involves killing; and is based on some stupid notion centered around region, origin, language, caste or sect.

  2. Anonymous says

    What started as a reasonable post displaying dismay over the treatment of Shoaib Akhtar by the Pakistan Cricket Board ended up mocking an entire country for its inability to live peacefully despite having one religion. Needless… don’t you think?

    Anyway, on Shoaib, I think he has been given too many chances to get back on track and I can understand PCB’s frustration with him. It’s time for him to hang his boots – you can be the best player in the world but if you can’t behave in a civil manner, you should have no place in the national squad of any country, in any sport since players are also ambassadors of their country and of the sport. Shoaib has proved time and again that he is a poor ambassador of Pakistan and Cricket.

    That said, I agree that the PCB should not have humiliated him in public like this – nobody deserves to be treated like this – not even Shoaib. But to extrapolate this behavior and the behavior of a bunch of Pakistani radio jockeys to the entire country is totally uncalled for.

    Only one religion and yet they fight… yes, it is terrible but we do the same, don’t we? Yes…Yes… we have several religions in India but even if we didn’t, would there be any less violence in India? Just look around what’s been happening in India:

    1. Biharis being beaten up in by MNS goons in Maharashtra – same religion…right? The MNS routinely and openly talks about kicking non-Marathis out of Mumbai and Maharashtra; they attack shops and businesses, beat up weak and unarmed daily-wagers. Who needs bombs when you can bash the life out of those poor buggers with bamboo sticks? So much for “sticking together”

    2. Attacks against Dalits by the so-called “high caste’ goons are so common that it is impossible to list them all – Bihar, UP, Rajasthan, Andhra, Tamil Nadu… almost every Indian state has witnessed such attacks. Are members of the Ranvir Sena and MCC / PWG from different religions? NO! To further illustrate, in Rajasthan alone, incidents of attacks against Dalits average 5024 per year (including 46 killings and 138 cases of rape). Aren’t we doing well on “sticking together”? [http://www.indiatogether.org/dalit/articles/bidwai1002.htm]

    3. Even the Sikh riots in 1984 can be listed here since Sikhs come from (erstwhile) Hindu families… right? The eldest sons from Hindu families adopted Sikhism to fight the Muslim invaders; to that extent, Sikhs are also Hindus. We abundantly displayed in 1984, in the capital of the country, how well we “stick together”.

    4. Or what about the recent killings in Vienna, and the riots that followed in Punjab? Weren’t these internal fights between different sects of Sikhs – Dalit Sikhs (Dera Sach Khand) and Jat Sikhs?

    5. What about the atrocities against the other big underprivileged social group – the “scheduled tribes”? Till date, our Government refuses to officially recognize them as “adivasis” (aboriginals) in international forums since that would impose pressure on India to treat them better. Instead, officially they are termed as “vanvasis” (forest dwellers) or scheduled tribes – their entire existence and identity left to the depleted forests they once depended on or to an arbitrary, regularly modified (and politically motivated) list in the Constitution of India. Tribals are routinely shunted off their lands; are forced to migrate to cities and work in terrible conditions; their women are routinely raped, often in public. Are we really “sticking together”?

    So yes, the Shia-Sunni violence in Pakistan is unfortunate but we Indians have no right to assume a moral high ground since we have plenty of skeletons in our own closet. Perhaps we don’t use bombs and suicide bombers but the crimes are no less barbaric – it’s man against man; often involves killing; and is based on some stupid notion centered around region, origin, language, caste or sect.

  3. Desh says

    You are back to your favorite game! 🙂

    Ok, 3 is nonsensical. #3 was not a religious fight. “Hindus” did not go killing Sikhs because of their Hinduism. The people who killed Sikhs were also hindus.. but they killed because of their POLITICAL AFFILIATION. I don’t believe that any RSS or Jan Sanghi was participating in it. I am not sure if you were there in Delhi at that time or not… but it was a crowd of slum dwellers who did it. It was a congress initiated thing.

    #4 – this is a strange phenomenon that is a mix of two things I have seen: one, recently, “mainstream” Sikhs have felt that their religion is in danger from “me-too” sects. Dera Sacha Sauda and the ensuing issue was the first indication of that. This is the second. For some reason, the fundamentalist religious identity of Sikhs has solidified against these sects.

    Second, there is a tendency abroad between different Sikh groups to fight for control of Gurudwaras. It is not uncommon to see fights in New York Gurudwaras.

    It is sad… but I think (i) it is VERY recent and (ii) it is more the handiwork of a few as opposed to a large number of people.

    One thing to also remember is that in case of Dera Sacha Sauda issue, there was a strong evidence that Babbar Khalsa extremists from Pakistan had a hand. Their chief from Lahore had made several calls to one very influential Gurudwara from where the hate rhetoric started.

    I also realize that frictions and passions do occur. But there are ways to bring them down in Sikhism and it has been demonstrated before.

    Regarding Dalits – thats a type of class struggle. I am not justifying it.. its something that should have been done away loooong back. Yet, its continued.

    #2 and #5 are redundant and similar.

    Now, by making such arguments you and over-zealous apologetics take away the focus from a VERY important issue that is hurting MILLIONS. It has been the reason why Iran & Iraq fought.. and killed many.. that’s the reason why Northern alliance and Taliban fought and in fierce battles killed thousands in ONE day!

    It is ALSO the reason why Ahmediyas are BY LAW in Pakistan destined to be killed of blasphemy if just utter the wrong word at the wrong time. It is very serious.

    To bring up the Dera Sach Khand issue while arguing on the point that I was making is not only nonsensical but downright criminal! It is so farcical that it simply disregards the tragedy that has been unfolding in the world since 1400s!

    There is a problem with Dalits in Hinduism. That needs IMMEDIATE and strong addressing. There is an issue in Sikhism and its sects. That needs addressing also.

    But I am talking of ANOTHER issue. Which has taken historically and geographically MORE lives than these issues.

    I find it intriguing that while Shias and Sunnis fight each other… bomb each other’s mosques in the rest of the world…. they are rarely at loggerheads in India! Or at least it is not covered by media, if they are. Isn’t that an astonishing thing?

    Why is that so? If you or someone can truthfully answer that question.. with enough dispassionate research.. then maybe that person can help solve the Iran – Iraq issue forever!

  4. Desh says

    You are back to your favorite game! 🙂

    Ok, 3 is nonsensical. #3 was not a religious fight. “Hindus” did not go killing Sikhs because of their Hinduism. The people who killed Sikhs were also hindus.. but they killed because of their POLITICAL AFFILIATION. I don’t believe that any RSS or Jan Sanghi was participating in it. I am not sure if you were there in Delhi at that time or not… but it was a crowd of slum dwellers who did it. It was a congress initiated thing.

    #4 – this is a strange phenomenon that is a mix of two things I have seen: one, recently, “mainstream” Sikhs have felt that their religion is in danger from “me-too” sects. Dera Sacha Sauda and the ensuing issue was the first indication of that. This is the second. For some reason, the fundamentalist religious identity of Sikhs has solidified against these sects.

    Second, there is a tendency abroad between different Sikh groups to fight for control of Gurudwaras. It is not uncommon to see fights in New York Gurudwaras.

    It is sad… but I think (i) it is VERY recent and (ii) it is more the handiwork of a few as opposed to a large number of people.

    One thing to also remember is that in case of Dera Sacha Sauda issue, there was a strong evidence that Babbar Khalsa extremists from Pakistan had a hand. Their chief from Lahore had made several calls to one very influential Gurudwara from where the hate rhetoric started.

    I also realize that frictions and passions do occur. But there are ways to bring them down in Sikhism and it has been demonstrated before.

    Regarding Dalits – thats a type of class struggle. I am not justifying it.. its something that should have been done away loooong back. Yet, its continued.

    #2 and #5 are redundant and similar.

    Now, by making such arguments you and over-zealous apologetics take away the focus from a VERY important issue that is hurting MILLIONS. It has been the reason why Iran & Iraq fought.. and killed many.. that’s the reason why Northern alliance and Taliban fought and in fierce battles killed thousands in ONE day!

    It is ALSO the reason why Ahmediyas are BY LAW in Pakistan destined to be killed of blasphemy if just utter the wrong word at the wrong time. It is very serious.

    To bring up the Dera Sach Khand issue while arguing on the point that I was making is not only nonsensical but downright criminal! It is so farcical that it simply disregards the tragedy that has been unfolding in the world since 1400s!

    There is a problem with Dalits in Hinduism. That needs IMMEDIATE and strong addressing. There is an issue in Sikhism and its sects. That needs addressing also.

    But I am talking of ANOTHER issue. Which has taken historically and geographically MORE lives than these issues.

    I find it intriguing that while Shias and Sunnis fight each other… bomb each other’s mosques in the rest of the world…. they are rarely at loggerheads in India! Or at least it is not covered by media, if they are. Isn’t that an astonishing thing?

    Why is that so? If you or someone can truthfully answer that question.. with enough dispassionate research.. then maybe that person can help solve the Iran – Iraq issue forever!

  5. Anonymous says

    >> You are back to your favorite game! 🙂

    LOL Desh, I should be saying this to you… you are back to your favorite hobby of bashing and degrading Pakistan based on nothing. 🙂

    On #3, it is naive to think that the 1984 riots were “only political”. The people who were killed were not asked for their political affiliations – Sikhs were murdered irrespective of their political leaning and Gurudwaras were attacked – and the people doing this were Non-Sikh Hindus (even if they were Congress supporters). And yes, I was very much in Delhi at that time.

    Besides, religion had a big role to play in the build up to the riots. It is well known that Indira was killed by her (Sikh) bodyguards in retaliation for Operation Blue Star. Why was Operation Blue Star so vhemently opposed – because it involved violence at a holy shrine …or in other words, religion.

    You have yourself repeatedly blamed the Congress for being Communal in 1984 (often, using this, by some weird logic, to defend Modi 2002) – well how could they have been “Communal” if it was just Congress supporters killing non-supporters?

    The role played by RSS in protecting Sikhs has been widely appreciated but since when is RSS the “official spokesperson” for all Hindus – the rioters were Hindus too and they killed any Sikh they could lay their hands on and for the ONLY reason that they were Sikhs. Why did so many Sikhs decide to cut their hair and shave? They could have simply announced their allegiance to the Congress and Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler, HKL Bhagat et al. would have let them join their killing brigade…right?

    >> there is a tendency abroad between different Sikh groups to fight for control of Gurudwaras. It is not uncommon to see fights in New York Gurudwaras.

    >> It is sad… but I think (i) it is VERY recent and (ii) it is more the handiwork of a few as opposed to a large number of people.

    Excellent, so when it happens with Hindus/Sikhs/Indians, it’s merely the “handiwork of a few” but when this happens in Pakistan, the entire nation is hell bent upon killing each other. Nice logic!! …wonder what it’s based on? NOTHING!

    >> Regarding Dalits – thats a type of class struggle. I am not justifying it.. its something that should have been done away loooong back. Yet, its continued.

    >> #2 and #5 are redundant and similar.

    Class Struggle LOL Since when are you a Marxist Desh? Or is it that the only philosophy you really follow is called “Convenience”? Don’t confuse Caste with Class – its not rich vs. poor I’m talking about. Go to any place in India outside the big cities (or to the under-bellies of the big cities) and you will see that irrespective of the amount of money an SC/ST might have earned, they are still looked down upon and treated badly.

    Violence against Dalits and Tribals is not religious BUT someone can look at that and claim, just as you did, “LOOK AT THESE INDIANS, JUST LEAVE THEM TO THEMSELVES AND THEY WILL KILL EACH OTHER”. So before you point a finger at another country, look at what’s happening within our own country and amongst our own people.

    Simply saying that “its something that should have been done away loooong back. Yet, its continued” means NOTHING. We need to acknowledge that it is one of the biggest flaws in our society; one of our biggest failures AND even to this day, we are nowhere close to getting rid of it. So much for our great civilization; and so much for “sticking together”.

    >> To bring up the Dera Sach Khand issue while arguing on the point that I was making is not only nonsensical but downright criminal! It is so farcical that it simply disregards the tragedy that has been unfolding in the world since 1400s!

    AND, to wish away crimes against Dalits and Tribals by “Upper Caste Hindus” and to term these as “redundant” is equally nonsensical and downright criminal. It is also nonsensical to crib about what’s happening in another country (and make fun of it) while completely ignoring our own faults and problems. Jinke ghar sheeshe ke hote hein, wo doosron pe pathar nahin maarte!

    Instead of mocking Pakistan, if you or someone could shed some light on:

    [1] why even after centuries of atrocities, we STILL are unable to get rid of “untouchables”;
    [2] why CASTE, SECT and REGION continue to play a big role in Indian politics;
    [3] why MNS, Shiv Sena, Ranvir Sena, this Sena, that Sena still find it lucrative and politically opportune to continue vomiting bullshit about non-Maharashtrians in Bombay (oops, MUMBAI) or non-Bhumiars in Bihar.

    …it would be much more meaningful.

    Finding faults in others is easy, recognizing your own faults is difficult, acting upon your own faults…. even more difficult. But I guess for you, the most difficult part is resisting the temptation of mocking and judging others without any credible evidence while you yourself remain way off “perfection”. When I say “you yourself”, I am not only referring to you Desh, but to US Indians. I hope all the spirituality stuff you’re doing will help you in this regard and if it does, do recommend it to others like you as well. Good Luck!

    I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon though. 🙂 So you continue with your Pakistan-bashing agenda and I’ll keep coming back from time to time to “my favorite game”. 🙂 By the way, did it never occur to you that finding faults in others to feel superior is a tell-tale sign of weakness?

  6. Desh says

    Ok, I dont think you got the Sikh killings episode right. Congressmen paid the slum guys and others to kill Sikhs. Hindus weren’t going out to kill Sikhs. The people who killed were not shouting slogans or swearing by Hindu Scriptures to kill. It was a massacre of a community by an ORGANIZATION! It is VERY VERY VERY different from a massacre of ONE religious community by another.

    Many an idiot on the internet – specially one called Dr. Naik – proclaim that since Hitler and Mussolini were “Christians” so… its not true that massacres and terrorism is just a “Muslim” phenomenon. Similarly, some folks use the logic that you have used.

    Let me help you understand the difference:

    If it was found that 10 murders were done by people who were Harvard Graduates – from different countries and religions etc – and while committing their murders they shouted slogans like “Jai Harvard”…. “Death to non-Harvardians”.. “Down with non-Harvardians”. Amongst the MANY affiliatiions they had within their personalities, Harvard was a major contributing factor for them to think of killing. That they were from Vietnam, Sudan, Mauritius, Malta etc.. didn’t matter to them as much as the fact that they were from Harvard and which drove them to kill.

    Now, someone like you could obviously point that well.. four were from an island in Pacific Ocean called Guam.. so Guamianism is obviously WHY they killed. That is an obviously mischievous and absolutely unscrupulous assertion.

    It is not which affiliations a person has…. but WHICH of those lead them to kill?

    Like they say the difference between a criminal and “civilized” is that Criminals do what they think. “Civilized” may also have killed and raped many a people in their thoughts.. but they know how to camouflage their personality and mind. Criminals don’t.

    But then, what is that affiliation of a person that tips the scale of his mind so much that he is forced to act as well.. to his/her dark energies?

    So, nice try.. but I will not let you get away with this utterly useless argument!

    Class vs Caste: Lower Castes were LOWER castes to begin with because they were poorer and with lesser power. The origin and genesis of this segregation was in the lesser productive work that they were forced to do. If they had power or money.. guess who would be ruling?

    The situation of the lower castes has been very bad .. and it has led to so many deaths and mess in people’s life.. But no matter how much you compare it with the hatred-led violence we see in Mid-East or in Pakistan.. you are just making a laughable comparison. One, is leading this world to a global catastrophe.. another is systemic issue which will need law enforcement and fiercer education.

    Now, as much as you continue calling my discussions and plain-talking on Pakistan as “bashing”, you seem more and more like an ostrich with her head in the sand. Maybe, if you or your kids were in Taj or Oberoi on 26-11.. in the middle of the fighting.. then maybe.. just maybe you would have understood HOW REAL that danger across the border is FOR US!

    That is why, I am convinced that people who are blinded, incurable “peaceniks” who find it ok to let thousands die… to keep a facade of “peace”.. like Arundhati should be air dropped in the no man’s land between India and Pakistan and made to fend for themselves…. or better still asked to go and live in Kupwara.

    The need to look at Pakistan and the issues that it has is CRITICAL not only because they can engulf the world (after all there is strong and credible evidence that ISI did finance Mohd. Atta before 9-11) and lead to a catastrophe if action is not taken at the right time… but more because of the misery that the Pakistanis themselves will face! What is happening in Swat.. and the IDP issue is something that I have warning of for so long… that these guys will ultimately threaten the Pakistanis themselves locally before we get affected.

    If not for your kids or family…. maybe you might find it politically correct to at least say a prayer or two for the hundreds of thousands who have been thrown out on streets without food or water?

    About spirituality.. let’s not go there with a frivolous attitude. Even worse than having half-baked political moral-thought is to have a fixed idea of what spiritual truth is or is not. I reject the morality in spirituality.. because morality is of him who defines it.. it is contextual based on space and time… and has been mischievously linked to God or Spirituality by fools and priests. I don’t want to go further than that.. but if you are honest and serious.. go read some book from J. Krishnamurti.. or Gita (seriously.. on your own) and maybe you would do yourself a world of good!

  7. Anonymous says

    >> You are back to your favorite game! 🙂

    LOL Desh, I should be saying this to you… you are back to your favorite hobby of bashing and degrading Pakistan based on nothing. 🙂

    On #3, it is naive to think that the 1984 riots were “only political”. The people who were killed were not asked for their political affiliations – Sikhs were murdered irrespective of their political leaning and Gurudwaras were attacked – and the people doing this were Non-Sikh Hindus (even if they were Congress supporters). And yes, I was very much in Delhi at that time.

    Besides, religion had a big role to play in the build up to the riots. It is well known that Indira was killed by her (Sikh) bodyguards in retaliation for Operation Blue Star. Why was Operation Blue Star so vhemently opposed – because it involved violence at a holy shrine …or in other words, religion.

    You have yourself repeatedly blamed the Congress for being Communal in 1984 (often, using this, by some weird logic, to defend Modi 2002) – well how could they have been “Communal” if it was just Congress supporters killing non-supporters?

    The role played by RSS in protecting Sikhs has been widely appreciated but since when is RSS the “official spokesperson” for all Hindus – the rioters were Hindus too and they killed any Sikh they could lay their hands on and for the ONLY reason that they were Sikhs. Why did so many Sikhs decide to cut their hair and shave? They could have simply announced their allegiance to the Congress and Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler, HKL Bhagat et al. would have let them join their killing brigade…right?

    >> there is a tendency abroad between different Sikh groups to fight for control of Gurudwaras. It is not uncommon to see fights in New York Gurudwaras.

    >> It is sad… but I think (i) it is VERY recent and (ii) it is more the handiwork of a few as opposed to a large number of people.

    Excellent, so when it happens with Hindus/Sikhs/Indians, it’s merely the “handiwork of a few” but when this happens in Pakistan, the entire nation is hell bent upon killing each other. Nice logic!! …wonder what it’s based on? NOTHING!

    >> Regarding Dalits – thats a type of class struggle. I am not justifying it.. its something that should have been done away loooong back. Yet, its continued.

    >> #2 and #5 are redundant and similar.

    Class Struggle LOL Since when are you a Marxist Desh? Or is it that the only philosophy you really follow is called “Convenience”? Don’t confuse Caste with Class – its not rich vs. poor I’m talking about. Go to any place in India outside the big cities (or to the under-bellies of the big cities) and you will see that irrespective of the amount of money an SC/ST might have earned, they are still looked down upon and treated badly.

    Violence against Dalits and Tribals is not religious BUT someone can look at that and claim, just as you did, “LOOK AT THESE INDIANS, JUST LEAVE THEM TO THEMSELVES AND THEY WILL KILL EACH OTHER”. So before you point a finger at another country, look at what’s happening within our own country and amongst our own people.

    Simply saying that “its something that should have been done away loooong back. Yet, its continued” means NOTHING. We need to acknowledge that it is one of the biggest flaws in our society; one of our biggest failures AND even to this day, we are nowhere close to getting rid of it. So much for our great civilization; and so much for “sticking together”.

    >> To bring up the Dera Sach Khand issue while arguing on the point that I was making is not only nonsensical but downright criminal! It is so farcical that it simply disregards the tragedy that has been unfolding in the world since 1400s!

    AND, to wish away crimes against Dalits and Tribals by “Upper Caste Hindus” and to term these as “redundant” is equally nonsensical and downright criminal. It is also nonsensical to crib about what’s happening in another country (and make fun of it) while completely ignoring our own faults and problems. Jinke ghar sheeshe ke hote hein, wo doosron pe pathar nahin maarte!

    Instead of mocking Pakistan, if you or someone could shed some light on:

    [1] why even after centuries of atrocities, we STILL are unable to get rid of “untouchables”;
    [2] why CASTE, SECT and REGION continue to play a big role in Indian politics;
    [3] why MNS, Shiv Sena, Ranvir Sena, this Sena, that Sena still find it lucrative and politically opportune to continue vomiting bullshit about non-Maharashtrians in Bombay (oops, MUMBAI) or non-Bhumiars in Bihar.

    …it would be much more meaningful.

    Finding faults in others is easy, recognizing your own faults is difficult, acting upon your own faults…. even more difficult. But I guess for you, the most difficult part is resisting the temptation of mocking and judging others without any credible evidence while you yourself remain way off “perfection”. When I say “you yourself”, I am not only referring to you Desh, but to US Indians. I hope all the spirituality stuff you’re doing will help you in this regard and if it does, do recommend it to others like you as well. Good Luck!

    I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon though. 🙂 So you continue with your Pakistan-bashing agenda and I’ll keep coming back from time to time to “my favorite game”. 🙂 By the way, did it never occur to you that finding faults in others to feel superior is a tell-tale sign of weakness?

  8. Desh says

    Ok, I dont think you got the Sikh killings episode right. Congressmen paid the slum guys and others to kill Sikhs. Hindus weren’t going out to kill Sikhs. The people who killed were not shouting slogans or swearing by Hindu Scriptures to kill. It was a massacre of a community by an ORGANIZATION! It is VERY VERY VERY different from a massacre of ONE religious community by another.

    Many an idiot on the internet – specially one called Dr. Naik – proclaim that since Hitler and Mussolini were “Christians” so… its not true that massacres and terrorism is just a “Muslim” phenomenon. Similarly, some folks use the logic that you have used.

    Let me help you understand the difference:

    If it was found that 10 murders were done by people who were Harvard Graduates – from different countries and religions etc – and while committing their murders they shouted slogans like “Jai Harvard”…. “Death to non-Harvardians”.. “Down with non-Harvardians”. Amongst the MANY affiliatiions they had within their personalities, Harvard was a major contributing factor for them to think of killing. That they were from Vietnam, Sudan, Mauritius, Malta etc.. didn’t matter to them as much as the fact that they were from Harvard and which drove them to kill.

    Now, someone like you could obviously point that well.. four were from an island in Pacific Ocean called Guam.. so Guamianism is obviously WHY they killed. That is an obviously mischievous and absolutely unscrupulous assertion.

    It is not which affiliations a person has…. but WHICH of those lead them to kill?

    Like they say the difference between a criminal and “civilized” is that Criminals do what they think. “Civilized” may also have killed and raped many a people in their thoughts.. but they know how to camouflage their personality and mind. Criminals don’t.

    But then, what is that affiliation of a person that tips the scale of his mind so much that he is forced to act as well.. to his/her dark energies?

    So, nice try.. but I will not let you get away with this utterly useless argument!

    Class vs Caste: Lower Castes were LOWER castes to begin with because they were poorer and with lesser power. The origin and genesis of this segregation was in the lesser productive work that they were forced to do. If they had power or money.. guess who would be ruling?

    The situation of the lower castes has been very bad .. and it has led to so many deaths and mess in people’s life.. But no matter how much you compare it with the hatred-led violence we see in Mid-East or in Pakistan.. you are just making a laughable comparison. One, is leading this world to a global catastrophe.. another is systemic issue which will need law enforcement and fiercer education.

    Now, as much as you continue calling my discussions and plain-talking on Pakistan as “bashing”, you seem more and more like an ostrich with her head in the sand. Maybe, if you or your kids were in Taj or Oberoi on 26-11.. in the middle of the fighting.. then maybe.. just maybe you would have understood HOW REAL that danger across the border is FOR US!

    That is why, I am convinced that people who are blinded, incurable “peaceniks” who find it ok to let thousands die… to keep a facade of “peace”.. like Arundhati should be air dropped in the no man’s land between India and Pakistan and made to fend for themselves…. or better still asked to go and live in Kupwara.

    The need to look at Pakistan and the issues that it has is CRITICAL not only because they can engulf the world (after all there is strong and credible evidence that ISI did finance Mohd. Atta before 9-11) and lead to a catastrophe if action is not taken at the right time… but more because of the misery that the Pakistanis themselves will face! What is happening in Swat.. and the IDP issue is something that I have warning of for so long… that these guys will ultimately threaten the Pakistanis themselves locally before we get affected.

    If not for your kids or family…. maybe you might find it politically correct to at least say a prayer or two for the hundreds of thousands who have been thrown out on streets without food or water?

    About spirituality.. let’s not go there with a frivolous attitude. Even worse than having half-baked political moral-thought is to have a fixed idea of what spiritual truth is or is not. I reject the morality in spirituality.. because morality is of him who defines it.. it is contextual based on space and time… and has been mischievously linked to God or Spirituality by fools and priests. I don’t want to go further than that.. but if you are honest and serious.. go read some book from J. Krishnamurti.. or Gita (seriously.. on your own) and maybe you would do yourself a world of good!

  9. Anonymous says

    Any suggestion for reading a good book is always welcome, so thanks for that. But before I do that, let me understand what you’re saying because once again, you are contradicting yourself.

    So the 1984 riots had nothing to do with religion? Why on earth do you keep accusing the Congress of being communal then? And if the Congress was not communal in 1984, that leaves us with BJP as the only and most communal party in the country. Would you agree? I doubt it.

    And the example of 10 Harvard graduates is really laughable. In your own example – the common factor between all 10 was Harvard. In 1984, all those who killed Sikhs were Hindus. Isn’t it? No wait, they were not Hindus at all, they were just Congressmen. We Hindus conveniently disown them just to rid ourselves of the guilt.

    There’s a lot more to 1984 than just the 3100-odd murders in 3-4 days. I know because I lived in a part of Delhi with a strong Sikh population. My mother and several other people from my neighborhood used to regularly go to the Gurudwaras. After the riots, they all stopped doing that. I thought that was stupid but in the prevailing atmosphere, perhaps it was necessary. Till long after the riots, several people hesitated to ply by an autorickshaw / taxi with a Sikh driver. Totally stupid, but true. This is not party politics, this is Communalism.

    True, the Congress paid some losers to go out and kill Sikhs but that was just the beginning. They alone could not have killed more than 3000 people in 3 days. What the Congress did was to create a fear of Sikhs, spread rumors against them BUT it was your friendly-neighbor Hindus who assembled themselves in groups, collected rods, knives, petrol and whatever else they could find and went around killing Sikhs. If it wasn’t for their actions, if the murders were ONLY committed by those who were paid to kill, the 1984 riots would not have been communal and perhaps would have been less painful and less shameful.

    The point I’m making is this: In 1984, we Hindus displayed our ugly face, publicly and unashamedly on the streets of the nation’s capital. It might help you sleep better to act like an ostrich and say, oh those were just Congressmen, not Hindus but that’s a choice you make for yourself. The “utterly useless” argument is yours, not mine.

    Caste vs. Class: I’m really curious to know which history books you’ve been reading. Brahmins – the ones who have become “world renowned” for their atrocities against “lower castes” were NEVER rich. I’m not talking about “Upper Caste” Bhumiyars in Bihar – that is much more recent and over centuries, the “upper castes” ended up becoming rich. That a group of men and women with nothing common between them other than their caste all ended up at the higher end of the economic pyramid is itself a RESULT of the Caste System, not the cause of any Class Struggle.

    >> Lower Castes were LOWER castes to begin with because they were poorer and with lesser power. The origin and genesis of this segregation was in the lesser productive work that they were forced to do. If they had power or money.. guess who would be ruling?

    How very convenient. Just shows your complete lack of ANY understanding of the history of Caste System in India. Varnas were professions; Caste is hereditary – and this heredity (is that a word?) is the root of all evil in the Caste System. What you call “Dynasty Politics” is the modern day version of the same. Only it’s more subtle now. The Brahmins (who were never “RICH”) managed to have a higher status in the Caste System without the use of any money. And once they got it, they guarded it by preventing non-Brahmins from (for example) getting educated, even from entering temples or sharing a common source of water. The saddest part is, this goes on even today!

    So quit being an ostrich and stop calling it a “Class Struggle”. That is DENIAL and it never helped anybody.

    Oh and I have never defended what happened in Mumbai so don’t try to put words in my mouth (or in my post!). I have never defended the Muslim fundamentalists or any terror group. I only completely disagree with your repeated attribution of the characteristics of terrorists to the entire population of Pakistan or to all Muslims. Any reasonable person would agree that doing this is INSANE.

    The other point I am making is, before mocking others, look at your own evils. Pakistan is not the greatest threat to mankind – the attitude of people like you IS. Even after reading possibly several good books (I’m assuming you have read the books you are asking me to read), you do not seem to have learnt much from them. It’s like the priest who spends half the day reciting the Gita or praising Ram and then steps out of the temple and acts like Ravan. What’s the point!

  10. Anonymous says

    Any suggestion for reading a good book is always welcome, so thanks for that. But before I do that, let me understand what you’re saying because once again, you are contradicting yourself.

    So the 1984 riots had nothing to do with religion? Why on earth do you keep accusing the Congress of being communal then? And if the Congress was not communal in 1984, that leaves us with BJP as the only and most communal party in the country. Would you agree? I doubt it.

    And the example of 10 Harvard graduates is really laughable. In your own example – the common factor between all 10 was Harvard. In 1984, all those who killed Sikhs were Hindus. Isn’t it? No wait, they were not Hindus at all, they were just Congressmen. We Hindus conveniently disown them just to rid ourselves of the guilt.

    There’s a lot more to 1984 than just the 3100-odd murders in 3-4 days. I know because I lived in a part of Delhi with a strong Sikh population. My mother and several other people from my neighborhood used to regularly go to the Gurudwaras. After the riots, they all stopped doing that. I thought that was stupid but in the prevailing atmosphere, perhaps it was necessary. Till long after the riots, several people hesitated to ply by an autorickshaw / taxi with a Sikh driver. Totally stupid, but true. This is not party politics, this is Communalism.

    True, the Congress paid some losers to go out and kill Sikhs but that was just the beginning. They alone could not have killed more than 3000 people in 3 days. What the Congress did was to create a fear of Sikhs, spread rumors against them BUT it was your friendly-neighbor Hindus who assembled themselves in groups, collected rods, knives, petrol and whatever else they could find and went around killing Sikhs. If it wasn’t for their actions, if the murders were ONLY committed by those who were paid to kill, the 1984 riots would not have been communal and perhaps would have been less painful and less shameful.

    The point I’m making is this: In 1984, we Hindus displayed our ugly face, publicly and unashamedly on the streets of the nation’s capital. It might help you sleep better to act like an ostrich and say, oh those were just Congressmen, not Hindus but that’s a choice you make for yourself. The “utterly useless” argument is yours, not mine.

    Caste vs. Class: I’m really curious to know which history books you’ve been reading. Brahmins – the ones who have become “world renowned” for their atrocities against “lower castes” were NEVER rich. I’m not talking about “Upper Caste” Bhumiyars in Bihar – that is much more recent and over centuries, the “upper castes” ended up becoming rich. That a group of men and women with nothing common between them other than their caste all ended up at the higher end of the economic pyramid is itself a RESULT of the Caste System, not the cause of any Class Struggle.

    >> Lower Castes were LOWER castes to begin with because they were poorer and with lesser power. The origin and genesis of this segregation was in the lesser productive work that they were forced to do. If they had power or money.. guess who would be ruling?

    How very convenient. Just shows your complete lack of ANY understanding of the history of Caste System in India. Varnas were professions; Caste is hereditary – and this heredity (is that a word?) is the root of all evil in the Caste System. What you call “Dynasty Politics” is the modern day version of the same. Only it’s more subtle now. The Brahmins (who were never “RICH”) managed to have a higher status in the Caste System without the use of any money. And once they got it, they guarded it by preventing non-Brahmins from (for example) getting educated, even from entering temples or sharing a common source of water. The saddest part is, this goes on even today!

    So quit being an ostrich and stop calling it a “Class Struggle”. That is DENIAL and it never helped anybody.

    Oh and I have never defended what happened in Mumbai so don’t try to put words in my mouth (or in my post!). I have never defended the Muslim fundamentalists or any terror group. I only completely disagree with your repeated attribution of the characteristics of terrorists to the entire population of Pakistan or to all Muslims. Any reasonable person would agree that doing this is INSANE.

    The other point I am making is, before mocking others, look at your own evils. Pakistan is not the greatest threat to mankind – the attitude of people like you IS. Even after reading possibly several good books (I’m assuming you have read the books you are asking me to read), you do not seem to have learnt much from them. It’s like the priest who spends half the day reciting the Gita or praising Ram and then steps out of the temple and acts like Ravan. What’s the point!

  11. Desh says

    Sikh Riots:
    BUT it was your friendly-neighbor Hindus who assembled themselves in groups, collected rods, knives, petrol and whatever else they could find and went around killing Sikhs.

    Did that happen in YOUR neighborhood? In karol bagh, Patel Nagar etc.. where I or my relatives lived, we were OUT in the streets preventing people from coming INTO our street. Our Sikh neighbors had kept their expensive stuff in our house, just in case, and left for the Army cantonment.. just in case, we wouldn’t be able to stop the crowd. DITTO for other localities that I know of. There were many places where the “Hindu” families of localities were NOT able to do anything or try and save the Sikhs out of fear.. but I am not going to let this UTTER BULLSHIT pass by. Name ONE place.. where the Hindus of that locality ACTUALLY went out to kill the Sikhs?

    I made it a point to go to the slum areas near Karol Bagh after the killings.. and I could clearly see that area suddenly full of COlor TVs etc in the small huts. I saw the looting of the shops in our area where the police did nothing.. and I KNOW who those guys were.

    So STOP peddling such nonsense. SHOW the proof that Hindus assembled and took out bombs/lathis etc to kill the Sikhs.. in fact one documentary after another has made this point that the Hindus – non-Congressmen – were exemplary in trying to save the Sikhs in their areas.

    COngressmen… hindus, non-hindus whoever they were struck because either they were paid or they owed allegiance to Gandhis.

    Yes, inspite of that, 3000 people died. Now, as far as Congress being Communal is concerned.. so is COmmunists. They also killed Dalits and Muslims – in large numbers in Nandigram. Did they kill them BECAUSE COmmunists swear by their Hindu identity?? Certainly NOT. They killed because in their grand scheme of things those elements were against their party.

    Varnas were professions; Caste is hereditary – and this heredity (is that a word?) is the root of all evil in the Caste System.

    Do you even understand what you are saying? It all started with the enunciation of Varnas. Varnas became a family thing at some point of time. These are what the Brits translated to be a “Caste System”. Varnas are no different from the castes. Castes were divided BASED on the Varnas… to help you better understand. Kshatriyas were Soldiers or fighters, Brahmins were teachers, Vaishya were the traders and Shudras were the laborers. There were several other sub-varnas.. or castes based on what kind of work you were doing – for example, were you trading in cloth or trading in leather..

    you don’t need to read history to get the point that the genesis of the tyranny of Varnas or Caste System lies in the different payback of the respective occupations AND the power one could yield. Brahmins yielded a LOT of power as advisors to the kings and the rulers and the teachers and those who CONTROLLED the scriptures.

    Pakistan is not the greatest threat to mankind – the attitude of people like you IS.

    What attitude? To say that there is problem in the world? To say that some people in one country are threatening the world AND their own countrymen.. the poor mostly?

    What do you want me to say?

    And name one Hindu who is threatening to hit the world right now? Or a Sikh who is? OR a Dalit?

    You just don’t get the situation of the world as it is right now. Middle east could erupt ANY DAY. Pakistan ITSELF could erupt anyday. No one knows whether Nukes are really safe or not. Everyone says different things at different times. My own analysis is that they have already been compromised, although I hope not.

    And in any case, you can fret and fume and show your solidarity towards the Jehadis in Pakistan.. for those are the people I write critically about.. may God help you to be with them for sometime to understand their “benign” nature.

    Even after reading possibly several good books (I’m assuming you have read the books you are asking me to read), you do not seem to have learnt much from them. It’s like the priest who spends half the day reciting the Gita or praising Ram and then steps out of the temple and acts like Ravan. What’s the point!

    That’s why I said if you want to go that side be serious.. Don’t have an “image” and then go out spouting nonsense. Unfortunately, all you have learnt is from your priests.. you have never thought on your own. If you do, you won’t go around peddling morality as spirituality. Sometimes its necessary to talk straight and also sometimes to fight. There is no contradiction in that and spirituality.

  12. Desh says

    Sikh riots:

    “It was the Congress(I) leaders who instigated mobs in 1984 and got more than 3000 people killed. I must give due credit to RSS and the BJP for showing courage and protecting helpless Sikhs during those difficult days” – Khushwant Singh. (K. Singh: Publik Asia, 16-11-1989).

    If indeed Hindus were killing.. then why would supposedly the most ardent of Hindus have helped the Sikhs?

    Also watch this video – see what the woman whose husband and sons were killed and burnt says… listen to who killed them and who ran after her and her youngest son.. and then finally who SAVED her?

    Congress and their goons have tried to put the blame on Hindus… by calling those massacres as “Hindu-Sikh riots”…. and I won’t let someone with nothing but malafide intention to go around twist this further.. so sorry… but I won’t let you get away with this nonsense!

    <embed allowfullscreen=”true” allowscriptaccess=”always” height=”344″ src=”http://www.youtube.com/v/X1t5JwAl4Lw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;” type=”application/x-shockwave-flash” width=”425″>

  13. Desh says

    Sikh Riots:
    BUT it was your friendly-neighbor Hindus who assembled themselves in groups, collected rods, knives, petrol and whatever else they could find and went around killing Sikhs.

    Did that happen in YOUR neighborhood? In karol bagh, Patel Nagar etc.. where I or my relatives lived, we were OUT in the streets preventing people from coming INTO our street. Our Sikh neighbors had kept their expensive stuff in our house, just in case, and left for the Army cantonment.. just in case, we wouldn’t be able to stop the crowd. DITTO for other localities that I know of. There were many places where the “Hindu” families of localities were NOT able to do anything or try and save the Sikhs out of fear.. but I am not going to let this UTTER BULLSHIT pass by. Name ONE place.. where the Hindus of that locality ACTUALLY went out to kill the Sikhs?

    I made it a point to go to the slum areas near Karol Bagh after the killings.. and I could clearly see that area suddenly full of COlor TVs etc in the small huts. I saw the looting of the shops in our area where the police did nothing.. and I KNOW who those guys were.

    So STOP peddling such nonsense. SHOW the proof that Hindus assembled and took out bombs/lathis etc to kill the Sikhs.. in fact one documentary after another has made this point that the Hindus – non-Congressmen – were exemplary in trying to save the Sikhs in their areas.

    COngressmen… hindus, non-hindus whoever they were struck because either they were paid or they owed allegiance to Gandhis.

    Yes, inspite of that, 3000 people died. Now, as far as Congress being Communal is concerned.. so is COmmunists. They also killed Dalits and Muslims – in large numbers in Nandigram. Did they kill them BECAUSE COmmunists swear by their Hindu identity?? Certainly NOT. They killed because in their grand scheme of things those elements were against their party.

    Varnas were professions; Caste is hereditary – and this heredity (is that a word?) is the root of all evil in the Caste System.

    Do you even understand what you are saying? It all started with the enunciation of Varnas. Varnas became a family thing at some point of time. These are what the Brits translated to be a “Caste System”. Varnas are no different from the castes. Castes were divided BASED on the Varnas… to help you better understand. Kshatriyas were Soldiers or fighters, Brahmins were teachers, Vaishya were the traders and Shudras were the laborers. There were several other sub-varnas.. or castes based on what kind of work you were doing – for example, were you trading in cloth or trading in leather..

    you don’t need to read history to get the point that the genesis of the tyranny of Varnas or Caste System lies in the different payback of the respective occupations AND the power one could yield. Brahmins yielded a LOT of power as advisors to the kings and the rulers and the teachers and those who CONTROLLED the scriptures.

    Pakistan is not the greatest threat to mankind – the attitude of people like you IS.

    What attitude? To say that there is problem in the world? To say that some people in one country are threatening the world AND their own countrymen.. the poor mostly?

    What do you want me to say?

    And name one Hindu who is threatening to hit the world right now? Or a Sikh who is? OR a Dalit?

    You just don’t get the situation of the world as it is right now. Middle east could erupt ANY DAY. Pakistan ITSELF could erupt anyday. No one knows whether Nukes are really safe or not. Everyone says different things at different times. My own analysis is that they have already been compromised, although I hope not.

    And in any case, you can fret and fume and show your solidarity towards the Jehadis in Pakistan.. for those are the people I write critically about.. may God help you to be with them for sometime to understand their “benign” nature.

    Even after reading possibly several good books (I’m assuming you have read the books you are asking me to read), you do not seem to have learnt much from them. It’s like the priest who spends half the day reciting the Gita or praising Ram and then steps out of the temple and acts like Ravan. What’s the point!

    That’s why I said if you want to go that side be serious.. Don’t have an “image” and then go out spouting nonsense. Unfortunately, all you have learnt is from your priests.. you have never thought on your own. If you do, you won’t go around peddling morality as spirituality. Sometimes its necessary to talk straight and also sometimes to fight. There is no contradiction in that and spirituality.

  14. Anonymous says

    Just look at the examples of how you backtrack from your statements and how you impose statements on others:

    >> To say that there is problem in the world? To say that some people in one country are threatening the world AND their own countrymen.. the poor mostly?

    IF you were indeed only saying that SOME PEOPLE in one country are threatening the world, I would have no problem. However, and I said this clearly in my last comment, my problem is that you refuse to distinguish between SOME PEOPLE and the entire population of Pakistan and the muslim population of the world. THAT IS STUPID!

    >> you can fret and fume and show your solidarity towards the Jehadis in Pakistan.. for those are the people I write critically about..

    Hahaha… I knew this was coming, didn’t I? I knew you will say that I am defending the Jehadis. Do you understand basic English? I said it very clearly in my comment that this is NOT what I am doing. How STUPID can you get.

    Write as much as you want against Jehadis… I doubt if anyone will oppose that. But when you start brabdishing EVERY muslim on the planet as Jehadi, that’s when you go terribly off-track, into the realms of insanity.

    >> Middle east could erupt ANY DAY. Pakistan ITSELF could erupt anyday. No one knows whether Nukes are really safe or not. Everyone says different things at different times. My own analysis is that they have already been compromised, although I hope not.

    What analysis are you talking about Desh? Is this the same analysis that predicted that Taliban will take over Pakistan in less than 2 weeks (wasn’t that said 2 months ago)? How do you count your weeks, by Jupiter days?? LOL You are a victim of fear mongering and are doing your best to propagate that fear among others as well… you need urgent medical attention.

  15. Desh says

    Sikh riots:

    “It was the Congress(I) leaders who instigated mobs in 1984 and got more than 3000 people killed. I must give due credit to RSS and the BJP for showing courage and protecting helpless Sikhs during those difficult days” – Khushwant Singh. (K. Singh: Publik Asia, 16-11-1989).

    If indeed Hindus were killing.. then why would supposedly the most ardent of Hindus have helped the Sikhs?

    Also watch this video – see what the woman whose husband and sons were killed and burnt says… listen to who killed them and who ran after her and her youngest son.. and then finally who SAVED her?

    Congress and their goons have tried to put the blame on Hindus… by calling those massacres as “Hindu-Sikh riots”…. and I won’t let someone with nothing but malafide intention to go around twist this further.. so sorry… but I won’t let you get away with this nonsense!

  16. Desh says

    backtracked?

    really! Where have I blamed the nation as a whole? I say some Pakistanis do have an issue and I have seen that first hand in Houston. There is not a single indian radio show that creates the ruckus that the Pakistani radios do. Although Indians are far more than Pakistanis in this city.. still 80% are Pak radio programs.. and most of them end up fighting each other. I am quoting the things that I see. The problem with you perhaps is that you have probably not left India to interact with the other side.

    Having said that, I do give the credit where it is due and have enough friends amongst Pakistanis. Per se no one is bad… even those who fight against each other. That’s their problem until it starts hitting other people. For example, when there were shootings in one of the Pakistani restaurants in houston, from then on, I stopped visiting any of them.. because it just seemed dangerous enough.

    In my posts I clearly differentiate between a normal citizen and those who are terror minds. Go back and read them again.

    taliban takeover: Have you been reading the reports? Do you have any clue of what is happening in Swat et al? How many people have been displaced? How many defense personnel have died? THAT is what it has taken to STOP Taliban! The way things were when I ran that report.. AND backed it.. such a resolve and fight was not even contemplated! So again, nice try but you need to start reading the papers a bit and then understand what would have happened IF.

    I am saying now, that Middle East could erupt like never before. I have never seen the emotions and passions in Israelis against the Muslims like I am seeing now.. and there will be a Jehadi retaliation to obama’s speech. How each side is able to handle the situation will decide if it happens or not. But the chances are very high.

    Similarly in Pakistan. The IDPs and the discontent in Pakistan on how it was all handled is brewing. Not all who were displaced were poor.. a lot of them were middle class. It is bound to find expression somewhere.

    Unless someone really loving and authoritative at the same time comes inthat country as the messiah… its troubles are just starting. Recent bomb blasts including the one in Peshawar’s 5 star hotel are an indication of what could go wrong in that country. and that is what the Taliban are saying via those blasts.. that they may have been delayed.. but they aren’t done yet.

    To you obviously thousands losing lives or their dwelling is a joke or a way to score points.. but I consider it a serious challenge to humanity at this point. This is the worst crisis in South Asia since 1947. I doubt you get the import of what is happening.

  17. Anonymous says

    >> It is my theory that the way to keep Pakistanis busy is have them forcibly live together and just be with themselves. They will end up fighting and humiliating each other so much that they will forget the others.

    >> I often think that Pakistan has just one religion to contend with (yeah yeah .. others are there.. but they are canon fodder and who cares for their rights anyways!!).. and YET.. they keep fighting with each other.

    Can you please clarify where in these two sentences from this very post did you care to differentiate between the ordinary people in Pakistan and the Jehadis? And I didn’t have to go to any other post to find more examples.

    There is no use of the word “some” so indeed you are backtracking. You cannot mock an entire country and then say, oh I was only talking about the Jehadis.

    Well, better late than never, if you agree that everyone in Pakistan is not a Jehadi, I would be very happy.

  18. Anonymous says

    Just look at the examples of how you backtrack from your statements and how you impose statements on others:

    >> To say that there is problem in the world? To say that some people in one country are threatening the world AND their own countrymen.. the poor mostly?

    IF you were indeed only saying that SOME PEOPLE in one country are threatening the world, I would have no problem. However, and I said this clearly in my last comment, my problem is that you refuse to distinguish between SOME PEOPLE and the entire population of Pakistan and the muslim population of the world. THAT IS STUPID!

    >> you can fret and fume and show your solidarity towards the Jehadis in Pakistan.. for those are the people I write critically about..

    Hahaha… I knew this was coming, didn’t I? I knew you will say that I am defending the Jehadis. Do you understand basic English? I said it very clearly in my comment that this is NOT what I am doing. How STUPID can you get.

    Write as much as you want against Jehadis… I doubt if anyone will oppose that. But when you start brabdishing EVERY muslim on the planet as Jehadi, that’s when you go terribly off-track, into the realms of insanity.

    >> Middle east could erupt ANY DAY. Pakistan ITSELF could erupt anyday. No one knows whether Nukes are really safe or not. Everyone says different things at different times. My own analysis is that they have already been compromised, although I hope not.

    What analysis are you talking about Desh? Is this the same analysis that predicted that Taliban will take over Pakistan in less than 2 weeks (wasn’t that said 2 months ago)? How do you count your weeks, by Jupiter days?? LOL You are a victim of fear mongering and are doing your best to propagate that fear among others as well… you need urgent medical attention.

  19. Desh says

    backtracked?

    really! Where have I blamed the nation as a whole? I say some Pakistanis do have an issue and I have seen that first hand in Houston. There is not a single indian radio show that creates the ruckus that the Pakistani radios do. Although Indians are far more than Pakistanis in this city.. still 80% are Pak radio programs.. and most of them end up fighting each other. I am quoting the things that I see. The problem with you perhaps is that you have probably not left India to interact with the other side.

    Having said that, I do give the credit where it is due and have enough friends amongst Pakistanis. Per se no one is bad… even those who fight against each other. That’s their problem until it starts hitting other people. For example, when there were shootings in one of the Pakistani restaurants in houston, from then on, I stopped visiting any of them.. because it just seemed dangerous enough.

    In my posts I clearly differentiate between a normal citizen and those who are terror minds. Go back and read them again.

    taliban takeover: Have you been reading the reports? Do you have any clue of what is happening in Swat et al? How many people have been displaced? How many defense personnel have died? THAT is what it has taken to STOP Taliban! The way things were when I ran that report.. AND backed it.. such a resolve and fight was not even contemplated! So again, nice try but you need to start reading the papers a bit and then understand what would have happened IF.

    I am saying now, that Middle East could erupt like never before. I have never seen the emotions and passions in Israelis against the Muslims like I am seeing now.. and there will be a Jehadi retaliation to obama’s speech. How each side is able to handle the situation will decide if it happens or not. But the chances are very high.

    Similarly in Pakistan. The IDPs and the discontent in Pakistan on how it was all handled is brewing. Not all who were displaced were poor.. a lot of them were middle class. It is bound to find expression somewhere.

    Unless someone really loving and authoritative at the same time comes inthat country as the messiah… its troubles are just starting. Recent bomb blasts including the one in Peshawar’s 5 star hotel are an indication of what could go wrong in that country. and that is what the Taliban are saying via those blasts.. that they may have been delayed.. but they aren’t done yet.

    To you obviously thousands losing lives or their dwelling is a joke or a way to score points.. but I consider it a serious challenge to humanity at this point. This is the worst crisis in South Asia since 1947. I doubt you get the import of what is happening.

  20. Anonymous says

    >> It is my theory that the way to keep Pakistanis busy is have them forcibly live together and just be with themselves. They will end up fighting and humiliating each other so much that they will forget the others.

    >> I often think that Pakistan has just one religion to contend with (yeah yeah .. others are there.. but they are canon fodder and who cares for their rights anyways!!).. and YET.. they keep fighting with each other.

    Can you please clarify where in these two sentences from this very post did you care to differentiate between the ordinary people in Pakistan and the Jehadis? And I didn’t have to go to any other post to find more examples.

    There is no use of the word “some” so indeed you are backtracking. You cannot mock an entire country and then say, oh I was only talking about the Jehadis.

    Well, better late than never, if you agree that everyone in Pakistan is not a Jehadi, I would be very happy.

  21. Desh says

    It is a fact that Pakistani communities in different parts of the world have been fairly aggressive and abusive of each other and others. I have seen it repeatedly for last 12 years in Houston. It is also a fact in England, where there are regular fights. it is also true in New york. By contrast, Indian community has rarely fought like that (except for some Gurudwara fights that I have known to happen in NY). so, there is nothing to backtrack here.

    Within that nation, there are jehadi elements and there are normal elements which i clearly write about. So there is nothing to backtrack there as well.

    you are just wasting your time making some irrelevant points.. while being blinded to the reality.

  22. Desh says

    It is a fact that Pakistani communities in different parts of the world have been fairly aggressive and abusive of each other and others. I have seen it repeatedly for last 12 years in Houston. It is also a fact in England, where there are regular fights. it is also true in New york. By contrast, Indian community has rarely fought like that (except for some Gurudwara fights that I have known to happen in NY). so, there is nothing to backtrack here.

    Within that nation, there are jehadi elements and there are normal elements which i clearly write about. So there is nothing to backtrack there as well.

    you are just wasting your time making some irrelevant points.. while being blinded to the reality.

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